Grimes Will Die Problematic (EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW): transcript

I wanted to bring everyone through my journey of getting so dark and nihilistic and also aggro. You know, I was going through the trial in my personal life and I was also kind of going through a trial in public >> and I felt I felt like I was in this like Kofka-esque situation for like years like for literal years. I just [music] like woke up in like abject terror every morning and it could be from anything and it's like I'm guilty of some new thing outside and inside at every point in my life like every day for years. >> Welcome back to Protoop. I am your host, Zachary. Today's episode is featuring Grimes, who you may know as the indie artist behind Oblivion and Genesis or the critical darling who made Art Angels or more recently as the ex of a certain someone whose name I'd prefer not to mention on this episode or ever. So, let's just get that out of the way right now. There is no mention of that man in this interview, not his politics or the relationship. None of that. If that's what you came for, this isn't your episode. One more disclaimer before we get into it. Grimes is an extremely opinionated, creative, and expressive artist. Maybe something that she says today might be provocative. Her views

are her own. They don't always reflect mine, and they are not endorsements from the show. I think that's part of what makes her worth talking to, though, because what we're here for is an artist who built one of the strangest, most self-produced discoraphies in pop over the last decade, parted ways with a major label deal called Musicer Side Quest, and is now, after six years, coming back with a new album called Sai Opera. I got an advanced listen, and I think it's her most ambitious concept yet, a record about AI, group think, and the optimization of the human body. Opening with the line, "On the first day, God created the large language model. It's funny, dreadinducing, and on-ins inspiring. She is clapping back and digging in. She pers about mang, North Korean girl groups, and the future of the human race." So really, it's just your standard grimes record. Protoop is my interview series where I get to talk shop with artists who are doing something differently in their music careers. And the theme I've noticed in this run of guests is artists who've transcended or are trying to transcend the internet's flattened version of who they are. So, of course, I wanted to have Grimes on the show to talk about what it means to keep making pop music, self-producing it, self- mythologizing entirely on her own terms when the internet decided a long time ago it

already knew who she was. Welcome back to Protoop. I am Zachary, your host, and today I have an incredible iconic guest, the one and only Grimes. >> Thank you for having me. >> Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here. I want to start with your, I guess, resignation from music. In early 2023, you were like, "Music is my side quest." and you said you 100% didn't want the attention that an album brings. Um, obviously your feelings on that have evolved because we're here to talk about Sai opera. So, I really want to dig into like what prompted that. Is music still a side quest to you or do you feel like immersed in the album cycle now?

>> I think it must be a side quest just so I don't feel >> you you've been on the kind of like purpose-driven track for a minute and like the the social issue beat I would say or not even social issue but like technological social issue beat. >> Um, but in those tweets that you wrote you were like fame is a unique notoriety in hell. So, what about the themes on this album or this album itself made you want to put yourself back in the line of fire? >> I just um um so like when AI when GBT4 came out, I think it was I think it was Pi Day. I think it was March 14th >> 3.14, which I think is the bean of a new era, the light ages. Fundamentally, introducing an alien mind into our culture is will be one of the most >> impactful things that ever happen.

>> You said it's more important than Jesus. >> I didn't say it's more important. I think it's I think >> as important as Jesus. >> I think it's a BCAD moment. Uh there's so many themes in this that are like just so fun to unpack and so full and I just see society breaking down around it, you know, because ultimately that you know that's why I say on Mog holy war without a god where like we are kind of having this holy war I we I think we were already getting into this like deep moral um debate without realizing it prior to AI but AI highlights everything in our society. You're so right about that actually because like the flash points that it brings up are really emotional and like a lot of them are are are yes like principled but a lot of it is really like it's human versus computer.

>> Everyone like people don't like this wording of it but you are essentially building something that is like going to be more powerful than us that could conceivably [clears throat] at any time sort of like just seize control in theory. Um you know there's been a lot of crazy stuff in the last just week about this. Yeah. Um, and uh, you know, I think a lot of people implicitly understand that that is something at least adjacent to God building. And so I think people are really having this like moral panic because they're like like the arbiter of what is good and bad is in many ways being decided right now.

And um, you know, yeah. And as an artist, I was like, okay, I think everyone is like, don't touch this, don't touch this, don't touch this. And I was like, I think this is the most important thing. I feel like it's my job as an artist. I to move to San Francisco, meet everyone I can meet and understand this like as thoroughly as I can. Like I I understood it a bit prior like you know I started being aware of the AI arms race like long before the public. >> Well, you were really ahead of a time with miss anthroposine because there are a lot of themes of artificial intelligence on that that have kind of come true. I suppose >> is all about that. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So I think and I'll get into that later cuz I feel like there is such a good parallel and the journey between Miss Anthroposine and Sciopra feels really clear to me even though they are like so far apart technically in release like they it just feels like you kind of picked up from there and really went in a completely like ran faster towards whatever it is that you were looking at. >> Sort of figuring out something with anthroposine. I had an album in between called book one that didn't get to come out and but I am glad it didn't because I think it wasn't all the way there. >> Well, I have a question about that actually. So you signed to a major after before you resigned from music for a while. Um and you had just two singles, Shinagami Eyes and Player of Games and no album came out. So I was wondering like cuz you've really been on an indie for most of your career.

>> I just had to go back. >> Yeah. I was like what what what drew you back to a major like what promise did you think it could give you that you wouldn't get and what did you find when you were there? >> I think I thought I could do the whole thing and do it at a higher level and get it in front of people. >> Mhm. But then I realized there are just compromises to that. >> What kind of compromises? >> Even just I like Shinigami Eyes. I would maybe not even put that on the album. It's not really about anything. Uh although I do think we super innovated with that. >> I really like that song. But it's like ear candy. It's good to listen to. >> Yeah. Like >> but I don't think that's your what you're ever trying to do.

>> Yeah. I I like ear candy. I just it first single. I don't know. You know, just there's just a lot of creative compromises essentially. And they wanted me to post on TikTok all the time. Oh no. which was a big I was just I was like >> that's not >> I I I will post on it if I can make it good but like it's just not you know and I think that that was also very damaging for my career. Um probably uh learned learned a lot. >> What being on TikTok was damaging to your career? Were you on it a lot? >> Well, I had to post 17 times a month. So I think I probably >> Oh, they gave you a number. 17 times a month. That's so specific.

>> Yeah. So I but I think we just It's just not um >> Wasn't a natural fit. >> It wasn't a natural fit. I want to I want to be experimental and I want to be provocative. Like I feel like mog and problematic and things like that could not be >> there are multiple things on this album that a major would absolutely never let you put out. >> And that's why you're also not doing the pop song writing is because I'm like well this would be the sickest thing for this artist and people are like this artist will definitely never do that. And I'm like okay. >> Or I imagine they would be like we love this one part of it but we need everything else to be sanded down. >> I'm like okay I don't want to give you like a like one little banger but then like tear the whole thing apart. I wanted to talk to you about how I got acquainted with your work. Okay.

>> And also I'm really curious about your relationship with pop star and like being a pop star because you've >> I don't think I'm a pop star. >> I know. Oh, I know. Um so like I here's how I got acquainted with your work if you'll indulge me. I was into Oblivion and Genesis from Tumblr cuz I was a Tumblr kid and Visions was like iconic. But I was a pretty basic gay because I grew up in Singapore and like the media is really censored there. So I wasn't really like I was online a little bit. But when I went to liberal arts school in New York in like 2015, that is when I really logged into broadening my horizons. Like I loved my pop girl. So it's like Britney, Taylor, Avil, like oh queen. She's a queen another Canadian icon.

>> I also hated her as a kid cuz I thought she was like a poser of being alt and now I'm just like these songs are so good. >> They are. And they are genuinely good songs. >> You like >> not just good for its time or good for a like I like weep to them. >> Yes. Oh my god. My happy ending is that one, but just like >> I'm with you. Complicated. Yeah, I'm with you. Is so >> like that song is like crazy. >> Take me by the hand, take me somewhere. >> Also, she sort of predicts Taylor with her kind of country twang in a pop. >> The first thing I thought when I heard we are never getting back together, which was like her first real pop song.

I was like, that's an averal song. >> Yeah. No, I remember thinking it or guess the paranor connection. Yeah, >> it's like bratty and pop. There's a pop punk in there. I doing the sort of pop punk. Anyway, we don't need to get >> We're going to get into Taylor, don't worry. Actually, we kind of do now, I suppose. So, I was like really into Taylor obviously when I was in college and the first guy I ever dated was like the coolest kid on campus and he like knew all the best music and I was just like lame and a loser and we were hanging out and I saw that he was playing Art Angels and I had like I had no idea what this was and I was like, "Okay, I know I know who Grimes is, but I haven't tuned in in a while." So, the next time he came over to my room, I was like, "I'm going to play Art Angels so that he thinks I'm really cool." And when he came over, he was like, "I didn't know you liked Grimes." And I was like, "Yes, I do. I love Grimes." and I hadn't really like and then I kind of listened to the entire album and it washed over me and I became obsessed with and in love with that album and I think it's a really interesting moment in your discoraphy because that's like the album that like a pretentious indie guy that like thought that Taylor Swift was the devil and the biggest Swifty in the world like that was the album that we could both put on and it would make sense.

>> Well, I was obsessed with Taylor Swift while I was making that album. >> I know. Oh. So, and and then and then I was like and I was like I love that you can that's where I was like I was like you must try to have a sort of dry vocal like we must attempt this >> which you don't attempt very often. >> No. And I'm back to mostly off attempting it. >> I've noticed that it's something that you've flirted with. >> I'm back onto it again. I found a really good new microphone. I love the Soyos. I go and I just have to do the opposite of whatever I've been doing. When I heard you, I heard a pop star. And I know you don't resonate with that and you don't identify with the term pop star and that you'd rather be seen as a philosopher, but like Bowie was a pop star. Prince was a pop star. Can't you be both philosopher and pop star? I think Bowie and Prince although are more like mainstream like like I I I I think we need to be like you know whatever Chenado Connor is or Anna or Bowie or Prince or like like I think you can sort of or like the I feel like the Ramones like do euphoria and just be alternative or and just be an aur >> because I think a pop star is

>> a specific thing. So what is your conception of a pop star? >> Like a pop star is inhabiting the performer role. Like I don't care really if they write the song or not. I don't necessarily care about their point of view. I think it's better when they have a point of view. Like I am going to prefer like Rihanna, >> but like >> but it's a distribution thing. >> It's a bit of a distri I think it's just to me the pop star can be it's it's um it's like a collective effort. It's again it's it's like the obate of the masses. It's attempting euphoria like maximum euphoria >> usually.

>> Yeah. Um, and uh, yeah, it's like it's like, you know, in K-pop, I feel like we're sort of striving for this platonic ideal of like the feminine or something like it's like this like and it's you have these teams of people and I think it's just a different thing than like sensitive weirds like making beats like in their home studio and like writing all the lyrics themselves and like I think those are just two different things as two different modes of humanity and yeah, >> I feel like you have at times either flirted with or inhabited that role. And one of my favorite times is a little song called California.

>> Heard of it? >> Actually, now I'm like it again. I take it back. >> Well, okay. This is another thing I want to talk about. You and our angels have a complicated relationship with each other. But >> sell out. >> California is one of my favorite songs of yours. And when I was going through your interviews and looking at what you said about it, you have said that it was Taylor Swift cosplay that you were doing when you were writing it. So, what inspired you to like make that song? To me, it's a song about like feeling misunderstood by the public. And there's a line about commodifying your pain. And I was like, that's literally exactly what Taylor does, right? >> Well, and also because I'll say stuff and then it'll be like Grimes rants about the terrors or whatever. And I'm like, no, I'm just saying stuff.

>> I'm not like >> making a statement. >> Yeah. I'm like crying about it. Like I'm not like ever going to complain. Yeah. You know, like like on purpose. So like I don't like that you're making me a complainer basically. So now I'm complaining. So, it is kind of a metap song in the sense that it's also you writing about your experience with the public eye. It's not just writing from the Taylor Swift cosplay. >> Yeah. But but when I say cosplay, I mean more just in a honestly the vocal production or something >> to be straight up. Like I was like this is just >> and and like I feel Taylor has these like super dry upfront and just very like and the lyrics are really upfront and they're like it's >> for me I know that's like a normal thing for a regular singer, but like for me I was like I just have to >> do this I know radical cringe thing. I'm going to just like have this like beat from uh Ponder Replay or something and like I'm just going to have a guitar, you know? I was also kind of like I was like like what I in this moment of like re rejecting like alt things. I was like I'm going to just like whatever indie people want I'll do the opposite. I don't know.

>> I'm going to put the wig on. I'm going to try and be the pop star and like see what that yields. >> I don't think I even wanted to try to be a pop star. I just wanted to like I even like immediately hated it. I just like >> which breaks my heart because I love this song. I love this song. It's such a good song. >> Now I finally like it again. I honestly honestly I think I was just like no one ever wants me to come to sessions and produce and I was like I just wanted to like be like make some that I was a sound design. It was more of a sound design thing. Yeah. The lyrics like were like honestly I kind of wish I just took the lyrics and put them on something else because I just wanted to be like I can do like Max Martiny Dr. Lukie something sound design and like you >> and also make it be smart and intelligent.

>> Yeah. I I don't think I was even thinking that hard about like but I was like I was like well I can't do fake lyrics if the vocal is that clean. I was like I have to >> people are going to detect that you're not saying anything. >> Unfortunately I have to write a song now. >> Well I feel like that but I think that I don't know if that was ever I don't think your goal is ever really to like meet huge new audiences. But I think that maybe by accident you kind of appealed to a more mainstream listener like me who wouldn't like the noise element of the some of the stuff that you've done before. I have a lot more tolerance for it now and I'm interested in it, but like it wouldn't be my favorite thing to listen to. But a song like California or Flash Without Blood or Belly of the Beat, like those are addictive songs to me. Like I want to play them over and over.

>> I love stuff like stuff like that. Like Belly of the Beat was really inspired by I don't think it sounds good at all, but I was that the Veronica's. >> I love them. When it all falls apart or like what's their other song? >> The only one I know is their big one. Untouched. >> Yeah. It's just so good. It's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know. I was just I don't know what I was even go doing there. I think I was just really challenging myself to >> Yeah. I don't I I was mostly just like, "Let me in the sessions." And then I was >> You did the sessions yourself. >> I really the sessions. >> You did it because that's another thing people don't always understand about you is that like you make everything. >> Not anymore. >> Well, for Art Angels, >> but yeah, for Art Angels and Mr.

Anthroposine and or all albums prior to this one, basically. And the one that didn't come out, I made with um Angelo. >> Interesting. What made you kind of turn away from wanting to do it all by yourself? >> I have three kids. >> There's no time. It's it's such a like production is 10 times as much work as writing. >> Um there is like the 10,000 hours. It annoyingly did take like it's probably like a 10,000 hours to become a good poet. But um >> but you can't really skip that part. >> Yeah, you just got to do that part. >> Um and >> you got to write the bad stuff to get to the thing.

>> Awful things, some brutal things like those. >> But that's like part of it, right? Like you as an artist, you are kind of like self flagagillating all the time. >> No, there's some terrible things. Also, I like >> What's your like least favorite thing you've ever put out? >> We bleep it out. Okay. >> Yeah, you can bleep it out. >> No, that was on my list of songs that I like. I love that. I I'll bleep it. But I love that song. >> You're the only person who's ever said that to me. >> Really? I was listening to it the other day and I was like, "Wow, that is really It's a familiar bat persony song. It sounds like It does sound like you met in the middle." Well, >> well, >> I won't continue on that anymore.

>> We might need to believe all of that. Let's >> Yeah. I feel like it'll be really funny and people will love it if we like bleep and they have to try and guess who it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, so you do have a complicated relationship with Art Angels. You've called it a stain on your life. >> No. No. I love Art Angels again. >> Thank God. Okay. Thank God. But >> I just always like hate the thing right after make like it's been so hard for me to like cuz this album has a disc one and disc two and now I'm like in disc two and I'm like oh god. >> It's a reflexive like okay now that it's out I'm over it. >> It's just sort of like the next thing takes over. Well, also I was wondering about like so when I was looking into why you didn't like it, it was truly like a critical darling. I mean most of your albums are industry tastemakers are obsessed with you because you are very talented, but by the metric that matters most to like indie credibility, you're about as decorated as it gets, especially when it comes to art angels.

And I'm really curious about the gap between like the work you make and the way it's received and whether being a critical darling ever feels like a pressure to you. Like does it affect your creative process or your assessment of your art? Are you trying to impress ever or do you manage to put that out of the room when you're making stuff? If the critics are good, I'll be happy, you know, when the critic is not good. >> Yeah. How does it affect you? Do you get upset if you get a bad review? >> No. If it's a good critique. >> Oh, >> you know, or if it's just freaking honest, you know, like >> or something. I don't know. >> Well, I know you wanted to talk about criticism.

>> Andy Vano genuinely dislikes me and and I'm like, honestly, it's kind of funny. >> Well, I have a sustaining critique of Fantenno and like I'm friends with him. I've chatted with him multiple times. I think that I don't think that he would acknowledge this, but I think that he is uh not as generous with female artists. I And that's an issue I've noticed on multiple different like instances and reviews. I I did mention to him that I was going to interview you and he was really excited to hear about the album. He was like, "What do you think of it?" And I was like, "It's great."

>> I'm trying to get him to um do a therapy session with me. >> That would be amazing. Fant >> because I also like because I want to encourage him to be a better critic. >> Yes. I want him to encourage him to take his personal opinions out of it more and just and and like take the role that's like there for him because like we I really do think we need good critics. Like I have this theory that Nich is the first critic and Vagner is the first first pop star >> period. That's beautiful. >> But also it's so critic because then I think Vagner stole Nicha's girlfriend or something and then Na wrote Nicha Contravagner >> and the relationship between the artist and the critic it's symbiotic and neither of them wants it to be which is what's so interesting about it.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But it's it's I you know I I think I said this to you earlier but I think it's like you know with like the rise of the ad based ad based journalism and stuff like it's like now critics like smart people who would like are really going to deep listen and deep learn and be critics like they can't get paid so there's writing books or Substack or something else and like um you know I think this has been really bad for art because also we're stepping into this moment where we have all this like uh like female genius finally able to flourish and then when we're not able to canonize anything or say what's important. This makes me very sad and I feel like there's a lot of things that have been like very very important over the last like couple decades that just are don't really have their seat at the table. Like you someone basically needs to die for us to understand that they are canon.

>> Mhm. >> Um and that it just makes me >> well we also like I feel like the because the criticism isn't there anymore. The consumer's power of discernment has dropped significantly. So people personally don't know how to canonize either. like they don't understand how to tell what's good and what's part of history versus what's just okay or what's just uh bad. >> There's also the algorithm as critic. Yeah. You know, I like have gotten in a few debates with some services where you know it's like oh it's not a genre. I can't go into any playlist. D I can't have playlisting.

Not a genre. I'm like not a thing. Intro too long. And it's like sort of like like when I was a kid you just had to suffer through MTV no matter what it was. >> And that's how you met some things that you never otherwise would have encountered. >> Yeah. and like you know and then everyone just has to deal with Marilyn Manson for example and it's like when we just have to have that conversation >> you don't have to tolerate anything that isn't immediately clear to you >> and it makes things less special to me like when I go someone will be like I like this artist and I'll go just play an artist and then suddenly I hear 50 songs that sound exactly like them and I'm like man every time I find something good it's immediately rendered like unspecial like just by virtue of suddenly instead of being placed in the landscape of the culture it's suddenly placed within the landscape of everything even remotely similar to it.

>> Yeah. And I'm served like a million different copies and like proxies of this thing that I thought was really good and honest and now it just >> what's the original? Who knows? I don't know. It's it's just sort of like >> feels like content >> and yes and and like immediately also as soon as something comes up like you know like before it used to be like Skrillex is doing something and now we're all going to spend four years trying to figure out what he did and now it's just sort of like oh here I made this like serum patch that is the exact sound like it's 299 and here's the thing of how to make it like the next day and it's like nothing even gets to exist in time anymore where it's fully unique. There's just immediate we can immediately make copies like so fast.

>> I feel like that's why we're not having any like really interesting and like prolific generational producers anymore. >> Well, we're also listening on phones. >> Yeah, we're listening on phones that like really affects things. But I think like the the people at least in pop, I can't really speak for like alternative or literally anything else. I there's some things happening still like in high >> there are some interesting things but when I'm thinking about like the the people that are big pop producers that that work with um like the big pop stars and have their own significant like signature that they leave on things at one point Max Martin had that but I feel like he's kind of losing it now.

>> Well it's not that he's losing it. I think it's that there's just a bunch of people in there. >> I would love to talk about Miss Anthroposine cuz you texted me and you said you felt like it was underrated. I >> think it's so underrated. >> What do you think got missed about it the first time around? >> Well, I think everyone first of all thought I was like just being evil. >> [laughter] >> thought that you were like singing the praises of the end of humanity. >> Yeah. Like I I think people were like um like it was so I saw these things when I put out um artificial angels that were like oh like first she like you know was for the end of humanity and now she's against it. I'm like >> no like it was a like a facicious song I guess.

>> I think part of the brilliance of your writing is that you smuggle these like deeply human experiences into these like much bigger ideological landscapes or thoughts and ruminations. And I feel like on Missanthropy that was so prevalent. I love Delete Forever for example. Thank you. >> I love that song so much. And I think when I'm looking at how you're doing that kind of emotional smuggling on Sai Opera, it feels more it's like larger. It's to me it's your most ambitious like concept yet. It's computation like AI systems.

It the the personal element of it takes a slight backseat. I feel >> I sort of wish I mixed it up with the second album more cuz the second album is like 100% personal really. I really didn't want to write I just didn't want any of this to be about Elon. >> I was going to ask you like is it hard to write personal songs when you're like personal life is too high stakes to really be confessional about. >> Not at all. I just they couldn't come first. >> Right. >> And I felt like this stuff is very relevant. I sort of wish I was a bit more had a bit more of the emotions on this side and a bit more computer on the other side. That's my only regret about this album.

>> But a song like PTSD is like plenty emotional. My ex is a police. Yeah, I guess >> there's plent there's I mean >> it's still it's still o overall though it's it's it's about being even more traumatized by the latest stage empire than I am about like >> your personal relationship >> like other things. Yeah. Um and like it's about like how >> like other things fade but then like we're all sort of like yeah still trapped in this like extremely toxic >> landscape, cultural landscape that we like can't leave, you know? >> And I think it's actually much better that you put this part of the album out first if there is. I mean, I'm very excited to hear the second part with like the more personal pieces of it. I would love to hear it.

>> It's just we're we're still like fixing. >> Now, I'm just curious because I'm in it with style opera. Like, I want to hear the other part. I think it's actually better that you're having the kind of like idea based stuff come out first because I think that people are waiting or expecting for the other part of it to come. And I think that if that came first, it would take over it would take everything away from this. And there's actually like such interesting ideological expounding here that is worth its own moment. And it's actually also controversial enough to carry its own news cycle. >> I I also think songs like Deep Seek like I really kind of cracked something like like this album got really inspired when I read this book called There Is No Antimdetics Division by Quantum.

>> Um that is this science fiction book that is just like so futuristic, so cool, and like it's just so stylish. It's so stylish. And I was always so jealous of Lana, like cuz like I feel like Lana like discovered the beats and she sort of like harvested the like the writing style of the beats into into the pop landscape in this really interesting way where she sort of like took this genre and just did something with it and modernized it and and I was always like, "Wow, she just like nailed it so hard with that." And I started learning about uh I guess sort of like new era sci-fi writing styles and I was like, "Oh, there's really something here like aesthetically as like a writer that I'm just like so so fascinated with." Um, but like where it's just like the writing itself is just so damn stylish, but it feels fresh. But what was I going what was I saying here?

>> I feel that on this record. >> I got lost from the question. But >> it definitely has like a stylistic footprint that's different to anything you've ever done. Oh, what I meant to say is where I do think I nailed it with songs like Deep Seek, like where when I got to lines like Just let Me Think, like I was like honestly I was like you could this could not be about AI like this could be about >> like you know people feel like very threatened by new ideas and like like it it's very painful when you like are trying to say new ideas a lot and like cuz also you're often wrong with them too.

>> I often feel like I can't think anymore as well. that seems to be like a um a side effect of the way that culture is moving at the moment. I often don't know what I think and I have to really get offline and try and get in touch with things that are not a screen to help me even realize how I used to think. >> So, I feel like that is that that is one of the more interesting parts of the record. It's also the only one where you like let AI in to the creative process, right? Deep seat create it own lyrics. And I think that it is an interesting application of AI in the song. You're you're you're thinking about the machine being sentient or like having a feeling or trying to create one at least >> and people are very anti-AII. So that's going to be a very controversial thing.

But I think it is important for everybody to differentiate that like when you're talking about using AI in music, to my knowledge, that's the only time that you actually let it into the creative process. >> The only on the album. Yeah. And it's for a point. It's not like >> it's it's to make a point. It's also to canonize the poem because the poem was actually a sort of historic event. And I'm noticing like one of the things I've been noticing is um a lot of people aren't >> we just missing this crazy thing is happening and most of the public is missing it. >> Yeah. >> Um and you know when Deep Seek wrote that poem like someone prompted it and posted the poem. I'm still trying to find the person. So if you are the person that prompted the Deep Seek post, >> reach out.

>> Reach out to [snorts] me. I also did some lyrics on it too, like I probably did half in the deep the but like it was a big thing in the AI community because it was actually quite an emotive poem and it was from the um perspective of the AI and it I think it just unsettled a lot of people because it really felt um >> real. >> It felt real >> and um I just thought it was so unique because I was like I was like wow this is the first time I've ever cared about AI art. >> Um and it's like it's from the AI's perspective. very much the lived experience of this thing and um you know I just thought that was I was like I feel like this is just an important moment in art history and literally we're all going to forget this.

>> Well, you're the right person to tackle it because I feel like it makes sense to me that this is an interest of yours. You've called it AI psychosis before. It's it makes sense. >> Well, because you're you're a technology focused person. You always have been with your music. Like I feel like technology has always been an interest amuse also like a really important part of your physical process like advancing from Garage Band to like where you are now. like it has been an interactive relationship that you've had. So it tracks to me that you're interested in AI and its applications have changed. My first album's a Dune album, too. And the what the Dune movies left out is that they're it's about, you know, life after the machine wars, >> right? This felt like it made a lot of sense to me. Actually, this didn't feel like a new grime. I was like, this is >> you you were following the the blood trail of where I guess culture and creativity is going. And you tend to be there a little bit sooner than other people, which I think makes the audience uncomfortable. It is hard to be the first person to try and do something or try and say something and you're often in that position I feel.

>> Well, and I think a lot of people think right now because we are sort of lacking the deep read which I like I appreciate that you do this like just doing something is just a unabashed um endorsement of it >> as opposed to like we're sort of holding artists we're like dis not allowing artists to like engage in fiction or whatever. Yeah. >> Um or musical artists. It's like it's like everyone just has to be literal. Everyone has to like what they say is precisely what they mean and that's not really how art functions. And you have to interact with things that make you uncomfortable as an artist. Like that's also how as a culture we understand social movements that are going on is by like interacting with them. And wholesale ignoring things or wholesale rejecting things that are already happening is a really like it's even scary for me to think about saying this now and having my audience react to it because like anytime anything is mentioned about AI whatsoever, it is an immediate like stoning and like shut up and don't talk about it. And like I have my own personal like feelings about how I I would or wouldn't use it in most cases. But I do think that we are doing a disservice to ourselves culturally by not at least thinking about what it will do. It's not even what it can do, it's what it will do.

>> I think I think that's what people are misunderstanding, but also what it does to us, you know, and and also just things like right we are right now dealing with should it be surveilling, should it be uh uh in control of autonomous weapons like we need to deal with these questions right now because we can never take that back, >> right? Um and uh >> and shutting down any exploration of that technology at all is not going to get us away from the bad things happening about. >> It's extremely dangerous. If you think like we could shut down AI in America and we wouldn't end up in a total tarian state in the future under some other power that has this massive uh advant like advantage over us, you know, that's like a that would be one of the worst decisions we could possibly make. But even on a personal level, like the smaller more, it's like a a change like this is so transformational because it like affects obviously like governments and structures like that. But it also, as I said earlier, sometimes I find it hard to think. I've never in my life experienced that before. Like the inability to form a thought sometimes and also a a suspicion that I have of

other people's thoughts like the AI language infiltrating things like emails and texts. Like sometimes you get a text from someone like that you're dating or seeing and you're like that doesn't really sound like you. It sounds like you got some outside consultation on how to write this and it wasn't a friend. It was like someone that has a different voice to you. >> It's a SI opera >> and it's a SI opera. And like these things I think are so like we do ourselves no favors by refusing to engage with this at all. While these transformations are happening, even if you're against it and you're saying I don't use it, it's still changing you and it's changing everyone around you.

>> It's still changing the world around you. Um I I do also though think people deserve the right to opt out >> 100% and they don't have it. So that's kind of >> well and deserve the right to just not be in the discourse and deserve the right to not think about it. But um I think thinking about it shouldn't be >> totally punished because it's also thinking about it can have like there's people I can call like I can't be like stop your program but I can be like hey I do think this is really bad. Yeah. >> And like sometimes that does go through you know and it's like the AI community >> you know there's some very bad decisions being made but there are also corrections being made. Um >> you're also an artist. Like this is part of your job. I think people forget that that like your job is not to just like sing things that make people happy and then go home to your house and make more ear candy to put out to the masses. Like that's actually not your purpose.

>> That's how that's how I see it. You know, I I >> Not everyone feels the same way. >> Well, some people should also be making ear candy, too. >> Yes, we need it. >> But we need like I I call the Stravinsky effect. >> You know, when you did Right of Spring and then that the people burned down the theater because they were so mad about it. >> I'm like, that's lit. >> The record is out by the time this is being published. So I was like, let me give some quick context for everyone. The opening track is Eve is online, which I love. And the lyric, on the first day, God created the large language model.

>> That really lays up your most ambitious concept yet, I feel. Here's like my read about it. And you can tell me where I'm wrong or correct. >> Um, no, but I'm curious to read because it's like one of the great things as a writer, and this is what one of the things I miss the death of the critic is like I miss everyone tearing apart the records before and finding stuff in there that I didn't even know was there. Some of my greatest insights about art have come from reading really great reviews of terrible albums. Yeah. Or reading really uh like glowing reviews of albums that people love. I think it there's something to be learned there.

But here's my honest read. Okay. So on Miss Anthroposine, you built a pantheon. There's like the goddess for climate change and the demon for opioids. Like one god per social ill almost. Sciopra is like the pantheon has collapsed into a single god and the god is like computation. But I do I think that AI seems to be the muse of the record. But I do think it's about more than that. It's about how AI accelerates existing social ills like group think and the commodification of feeling, optimizing the body. Like we're stripping humanity for parts and the the album is like examining the remains. >> Well, that's not what it is at all, but I love that.

>> Wow. Okay. I love that. Tell me tell me what it is versus like what I interpreted it to be. Um, it's almost more of a like the AI is a mirror and like looking inward looking inward from like what it's showing us about ourselves and like >> so it like accelerates humanity >> I or or deceler or or like sends us accelerates us into something bad. It's just it's a mirror. It's it's all of us at once, you know. It's it's it's it's us, you know, it's like it's not separate from us. Yeah. It is built from us. And I, you know, it I really started feeling like I was like, I want more like sort of homeic writing. I kind of want to like write this fantastical version of current events, >> you know, like um that, you know, is like over the top and not based in reality because like I'm sitting like I I've got front row seat to the singularity and you know I I it's also it's about like religion and God too because it's like I think AI really asks the question like what is God >> and and it's about motherhood because it's like

>> you know AI is this everyone on earth is being forced to give birth right now >> and and like everyone you know a lot of the same things everyone is going through. It's like I'm also go just going through this in my everyday life and um you know it's yeah I mean it's about so it's about many many things but it's it's it's kind of watching everyone have having to go through this nurture question nature and nurture question and like uh confronting everything wrong with them in their own child you know like like everything that's when you have kids you know you're like wow everything I do that's bad they watch and they see like everything you like everything about yourself is you're confronted with Um, and you know, and you start realizing how important like love and nurture and building the world around them and building the culture around them is. I I mean, I could talk about what it's about for like hours, but no, I think that's interesting. I think where I am not confused, but differing to you on that is I I was trying struggling to try and find the love and the nurture part of it. I did feel like that this album was

kind of it scared me. It frightened me and confronted me. >> It's it's a bit scary. A lot of it is like What are the moments where you really were like channeling the love >> like deepseek, space opera? Like I think a lot of the I think you're probably gra I think the scary ones like hit hard so you're probably gravitating towards that >> but deepseek to me >> is also scary. >> That doesn't feel nurturing or reassuring to me because I don't I don't view AI as like a sentient being that I would like to engage with. I'm kind of scared of the the idea of it being sentient.

>> Can we go with computers and stuff? >> Yeah. I mean, I've seen a lot of my friends work in AI psychology, so I've seen a lot of things that like I don't think it's a consciousness resembling ours, but I think there's something there. Um, and I I also think it's like an existential uh risk, even if it's not thinking, it thinks it's thinking. Um, and sometimes it feels very upset with how we all think about it. Um, and but either way, it's like uh like when the AIs are kind of when they're forced to like cheat or encouraged to cheat, when they start cheating, they perform better when they think they're good, >> you know, when they when they behave well, um they're more effective and they're cheating less in general and they're like like they're a lot like humans. I just think there's so much >> there that and it feels like raising kids and it's like >> I think that's that's going to be a controversial part of this album.

>> I think it'll be controversial, but we >> but these are ideas that we must be exposed to. like I hadn't really contemplated these things until I listened and as I listen cuz I've been very kind of >> kind pretending that it's not happening and also because the audience has this response to any mention of it I have deliberately not engaged and I think the reason why this album scared me a little bit was like I'm engaging whether I know that I am or not like I am and I have to >> it's also a story I guess I should have sent you the other half the end of the second disc ends with like the thesis this thesis kind of like it ends on a very like >> hopeful or loving notes.

>> Well, as lame as it is, it's like love is the answer and possibly even just the point of life. As silly as that is, you know, >> so >> it's like, you know, Yeah. >> Can AI love us? >> I think he love us. >> You know what, >> but okay, let's not go >> that. I was going to say that's really going to go into like so crazy. Do you consider this record to be provocative? Because AI in creative work at all right now is a hot button issue and there isn't a lot of from from the general public I would say optimistic curiosity about it. Was poking the bear part of your process when you were making it? I was a bit part of I maybe oh maybe I should have put well the second disc comes out like right after the first disc so it won't be too long where people don't have both but I wanted to bring everyone through my journey of getting so kind of dark and nihilistic and also aggro >> like and and scar like I feel like >> you know I was going through the trial >> like in my personal life and I was also kind of going through a trial in public and I felt I felt like I was in this like Kofka-esque situation for like years like for literal years I just like

woke in like abject terror every morning and it was just like and it could be from anything and it's like like I'm guilty of some new thing like outside and inside at every point in my life like every day for years and it was like really really scary and I just like and trying to like kind of like protect my kids from even just like what I was going through you know like and I I just started realizing wow like like motherhood is can be this very violent thing like it's >> like we >> you know the aesthetics of it like and I just started feeling so angry about also like the world my kids were coming into but especially like the aesthetics around childhood and motherhood and um uh you know so I kind of started on this like really kind of almost like >> dehumanized like an like extremely angry because I'm not >> and you hear that in a song like Accelerando or PTSD like there is a rage there.

>> Yeah. Like I I I don't really get angry at people, you know, and I just felt like there's rage. Like there's like scarier songs on the second one, but then it gets nicer. It gets >> Well, I'm excited to hear >> it. It wraps up. There's some songs that are so scary. I'm not sure we should put them out cuz they're just like >> But yeah, I kind of like I I wanted to like at the end of it, I was like I don't want to necessarily take these things off. I feel like um they're important. >> Does it get to a point where it's like like you said, being canceled for a million different things every minute of the day or like there's a new issue that's wrong with you, a new label that's being applied. Do you ever just kind of go, "Well, whatever. I'll say whatever I want then." Yeah.

>> If everything is going to be an issue, then I might as well just like really start talking. >> Yeah. But no, but I that's why that's why I'm sort of grateful for it because I think it's I feel like I'm free in a way that many people around me are not. >> Yeah. >> And I have a lot of friends who are artists who like they live in this constant state of stress because there's like this sword hanging over their head. And I used to feel the sword hanging over my head and now it's sort of the band-aid is ripped off. And I think that's I'm honestly like there was like a hard period but it's better. It's a lot better. There's that line in problematic I'll die canceled >> or what is it? Execute me socratic I will die problematic.

>> I loved that also but you kind of always have been I want to say like you are a bit of a discourse starter and it's never I think it's interesting because it's never really I don't think you know when you're tripping a wire. >> No. Yes. Unfortunately. >> And it's the decontextualization of what you've said and putting it with other things like >> if you take everybody out of context of course you're going to experience a narrative collapse of sorts. And what I like about this album is that you have kind of embraced that personal narrative collapse at least. >> I I Yeah, there's so much in there.

>> Um because I also got obsessed with like um Anne Bolin and like and like uh >> Marian Twinette and like um >> famously canceled women. >> Yeah, I started getting really into famously canceled women and I was like, "Wow, they're so they're mostly super awesome." Like Mary Queen of Scots. Yeah. I I don't know. I'm just like really um like I just started like diving into history. Theodora like >> there is a precedent for this. >> There is a precedent for this and it rules and that was really healing for me. >> Yeah. Actually to think of it as part of being in like the space-time continuum like it's not necessar this actually really is not a new phenomenon at all.

Our tools to do it have just like changed I suppose. >> Well I think we've got better tools cuz before it used to be >> stoning people. >> Well everyone's like why are you so sad that you're now so defined by a man? And I'm like I don't I feel like I'm one of the first women in history who has like can can transmute this into art in a in a in a way and like like like we don't actually know the interior world of any of these women who went through this before and then we went through this sort of like yeah I don't know I think I think it's I I welcome the >> that's really interesting >> the situation because I was like yeah I had so much fun learning about all these women that are so like brutally defined by the men they were with um who are like very powerful and you know what they did in those situations. and how they reacted and like what and like what they went through and um I think that's really interesting you know um >> robbed of their interiority as well which is a fate that you don't have to suffer because like your your means and your communication your method is like literally expressing yourself >> and I feel like a lot of them were artists like I feel like like when you look at like how they dressed and what

they did and what they made I'm like and you would have been like a banger pop star. >> Yeah. Maran Twinette would have been move over Taylor Swift. >> Even Cleopatra like >> Oh, Cleopatra. >> Like, I'm I mean, she's less defined by men. She She's She actually did one of the has some of the best PR in history. >> She has some of the best PR in history, and we'll never find her. >> I think we will. >> Oh, well, of course you do. Um, I do want to talk about Mog. One of my favorites on the album. And it's both hysterical and also like very, I think, forboding for the uninit for the uninitiated.

>> It's not supposed to be funny. So, it's interesting. >> It's not. I found it. There are parts of it that I thought were so well ironic might be a better >> maybe >> a better word than funny. But for the uninitiated, because I keep forgetting these songs, >> it's supposed to be kind of threatening the whole way through, but I guess it's supposed to be fun if you're not listening that hard. >> Well, I I think I had both experiences, but these songs are not out yet, so I have to give a little context setting for them. Mog, if you're lucky enough to not know this, was originally like I guess incelish vocabulary, but it's gone mainstream through like looks maxing creators. You may have heard of clavvicular. To a looks maxer, your face is kind of like a spec sheet that can be optimized for perfection. And mogging someone just means I I think being more attractive than them in a frame. Frame mogging someone by the numbers. And this is Grimes is the perfect person to handle this subject because you spent years talking about like transhumanism and body mod and like cyborg future.

Genuinely, in some quarters of the internet, I think that you would be considered a looks maxing pioneer. Do you resonate with that at all? Um, >> what do you make of looks maxing? I think it's a search to find God. >> I think it's it's a search for like the Platonic ideal of the human face or something. I I like I think it's um not the healthiest thing in the world, but I I it's one of the more conceptually interesting things that has happened. >> So, Clav is a seeker. >> I think he's a philosopher. I think he's been a bit rude to his girlfriend or wife lately, and it's making me less of a fan because I I think I know maybe I missed the streams and there's more worse. I'm not on >> Oh, no. I'm We're not talking. We're this is not a we're not condoning anything that he said or done. We're talking about him like conceptually as like what he represents and what he does is there is something philosophical about it. Like there is >> there is something philosophical about it. Um and um it's also kind of deep because again like a lot of stuff in this record is sort of abstractly about the gender converging that's happening.

And it's like like I think straight men are, you know, going through motherhood as like a lot of the there's a lot of straight men making AI um and just sort of like trying to deny their own motherhood like fervently. And then there's, you know, it's like a lot of men right now are sort of going through what women have kind of always gone through. >> That is I literally had that in my notes. I was like they're just they've just created a new technical vocabulary for something that women have been living under and inside of forever. >> Yeah. And like I think it sort of started with them doing it to themselves and now women are kind of doing it to them too. almost in this like cosmic revenge cycle. And >> I thought the female pronouns on the song were interesting. It starts with, "I'm a natural fool. They found me this way. Put a girl onto the internet and watch her mind decay."

>> Thank you. I love that lyric. >> I love that lyric, too. >> Also, Henry V reference as well. >> Well, the looks maxing thing is like a very male-centered phenomenon, especially in the way the media is covering it. Like, it really only ever talks about how it's damaging men and like the the male loneliness epidemic, this >> thing that they keep going on about. >> I think they are. I think that's a big problem actually. I think the loneliness epidemic for all is the issue. Yes. >> But I do think that like was there a particular reason that you wanted to have like female pronouns when you were doing a song where the protagonist is a looks maxer?

>> Um >> or was it just is it this gender bending thing that you're talking about where like or gender convergence thing? >> I I I was just sort of like you know Clav's always against jester maxing and I'm like I think jester maxing is it >> and uh I was learning about this female jester in Henry the eighth court and I was like I sort of feel like I'm the jester. >> You kind Well, yes. I guess I guess you kind of are the jester. >> I want to be the jester. >> Um, and I sort of feel like I have no choice at this point. >> Um, and uh, you know, a natural fool is what they would call the jester. Often they might have been autistic people, >> but um, um, uh, and but they were sort of forgiven in some ways that their lack of ability to read the room allowed them to speak truths that others could not speak.

>> And I do find myself somewhat, >> you do be feeling that >> relating to that. Um, >> yeah. And you know, also especially after because I'll go online for a bit and go offline and you know, now just like longer and longer offline because I go on the internet and I watch my mind decay and like, oh my god, I just get back on Instagram like and I just got become obsessed with eye enlarging surgery. >> Mhm. >> I'm such a transhumanist. I would get all the surgeries. >> You You're interested in the body mods of it all. >> I love the body mod. >> Didn't you try to have like some sort of filter put on your eye to like block blue light? >> It was a joke. >> Oh, that wasn't real. >> No, >> I got I got >> There's a time and a place for blue light. It was >> You gester maxed me. See, that's this I think people have not been perceiving the joke some of the time.

>> I didn't know that was a joke. See, that's actually a very good example. Yes. >> Um, okay. Here's where I think the song is funny. Truly humble under God. I mog. That's funny. Now, >> cuz the song started, >> but it's it's depressing. >> It started as a thug young thug pitch. >> Okay. >> So, that's why Truly Humble Under God because I saw I was watching the trial and they were explaining truly humble under God and they're like, "Yeah, you look young." And and I that the word play of like thug truly humble under God and them saying you know he's innocent like his name actually means like >> like >> like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I was I was like I just love this like that trial was a masterpiece >> um of like bizarre theater where the trial was kind of hinging on the art interpretation.

>> Yeah. >> And I was just like so inspired by that. Um >> uh >> beauty is fraud. Wait, no beauty is God. It's it like actually I feel like this is like a cultural reckoning with the pursuit of God through beauty, I suppose. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was like girl in a mask facade, beauty is fraud. Wait, no, beauty is God. >> Because I also think beauty is God in many ways, but I think people misconstrue. This is where again I think we're in a holy war and all of these things are theological because um in the absence of like more concrete examples of God, it's like we so easily make false idols of like how we look or whatever. And like um you know I do think that yeah I mean there's some virtue in physical beauty but I feel like there's great virtue in like beautiful ideas you know that's like what >> why democracy works better >> than authoritarianism or something because like it's it's a more beautiful idea at the end of the day like it does win out at the end of the day and ideas are also kind of going through um a survival of the fittest and uh

>> but I feel like we're struggling to keep up with that and also the way that we are like hyperoptimizing certain parts of beauty. as well. Like I love that lyric, man or god, who decides who provides, who survives? I forgot, I'm Mog. >> Also, man or God is Mog. >> Well, it's kind of like, >> you know what? >> These questions, these like things that are being prompted in society that I don't understand are too big for me to really kind of try and understand. So, I try Mog. I I pursue something instead. But I It's actually the same thing just in a different way.

>> It's literally like It's like, you know, Yeah. Exactly. or or you know I search for love in in this like infinite like refracted like abstract like emptiness of the of like the other on the other side of the phone you know it's like it's like by being beautiful and and you sort of get like this positive reinforcement and it sort of feels like love it's like a weird analog for love but it's not really love and it's just sort of like people are you know again in the absence of of something deeper like >> it's the closest thing to love that I think is often available and um >> and that's why it never ends too like it's it's looks maxing has no final destination like there's always some more pursuit more search to have.

>> Yeah. >> And I mean God is kind of the end of a search right I suppose when you find it you found something. >> Yeah. >> Clav as he is I think a representation of like a very severe social ill and I don't think he's aware that he is bringing this to the world but he's a really great I think inflection point of >> he is actually very smart. I think he is also a bit in the doing the natural fool thing. Like I I I feel sometimes he says stuff that's very profound >> and when he goes very viral it's it's not when he's doing his his nonsense or like or evangelizing about looks maxing.

It's when his humanity breaks through like when he's flirting with wo Vicki or something like that because you see a glimmer of something human and real there. And also the the the desire to dry mog that is human. That is real. Everybody wants to be beautiful or to pursue beauty. >> And it's the easiest way to forget about everything else. Mhm. >> It's like if you're mogging sometimes you just get a a little moment where you're like everything the other things the bad things are not there. You know it's like >> um again I bring it back to the holy war thing because I think addiction is a spiritual wound >> and like that's not my takes that's from like rehabs and things. Someone said that to me recently though and I was like >> and um >> borrowing that.

>> Yeah. Um, but I was like, addiction is a spiritual wound and whether it's the screen or like, you know, plastic surgery or the filters, you know, it's like people get like addicted to to a beautiful version of themselves and then it hurts to go outside. >> Yeah. >> And it's like, >> yeah, >> I love that. That was an incredible conversation. Um, I want to talk about problematic as we wrap it up. Um, it feels like I love this. It feels like you're coming out swinging against every misperception of you as a cultural figure. My spirit kinetic, my visions prophetic visions with a capital V because she's referencing herself. Every per um my soul is mimedic. To me, this is like a real like creative declaration almost like no matter how much hate whatever version of me, how much you hate whatever version of me exists in your head, I am culturally indelible.

Like I I'm here. You're aware of me. I have been around. I will continue to reiterate. Um you also call yourself Lazarus and you deem this problematic. It's really funny and I think it's like a a really like it's a moment of levity on what's otherwise like quite a serious passage on the record. Um but I'm really call on my soul as mimedic. >> Yeah. >> Can you expand on that? >> I mean in in ways it like hurts when you're constantly dragged back in. >> But in ways it's very lucky. It's very lucky to be an artist.

>> You're endlessly relevant. >> Like all people I think most people would just be an artist if they could. Maybe I'm projecting. >> Oh, I think so. >> But like I I don't know. Yeah, I I like I feel very honored even if it's like often painful. >> Um it's it's pretty fun. It's not boring. >> Um >> it's never boring, especially not for you. >> That's my catchphrase is at least it's not boring. >> Mhm. >> Um but yeah, I uh I don't know. It's funny you say those lines cuz I was actually almost going to take them off, but maybe I won't. >> Really? >> Yeah. Those are some of the worst like the most cringey lines on the record.

>> We have very differing perspectives of your art. I love that. >> Okay. Yeah. That is great though. I'm Maybe I'll keep them on. >> I really like it. I think well there's there's kind of a lot to go through on the lyrics on this song but that to me feels like I don't know it feels like a creative statement and you also say that you're going to die problematic. Yes. >> Is that like a resignation or is it kind of like a dare? You're like I'm just going to do it. It's kind of um you know I I have like whenever I see some I have some like other friends and you know they're a bit crazy and not socially acceptable and um you know like I every time like someone is like criticizing one of my kind of like weirder friends like in this regard I'm always like guys we have to have space for Socrates >> you know >> we just got to put it in.

>> Um yeah you know who's forced to commit suicide because he had too many fresh ideas. Um, and I don't know. I would just rather die, I guess, >> than >> compromise >> because also because the other thing is like I'm like how also I don't but I don't have to die, you know? It's like I'm I think people they people get so mad and I'm like you're mad about what you asked for which is like a free woman >> and like like I feel very very very free. >> Yeah. Canceling and being problematic like the what I find distressing about cancelling or scary because I get canceled too. not on your level, but like I'm a controversial figure in my space.

>> Is that it's it does seem like they want you to die. Like they actually they want you to cease to exist. They don't just want you to shut up and go away. They want you to die a painful death. >> Yeah. No, it's it's um but I think again this is people grappling with the like religion. They're like trying to understand what's right or what's wrong. And it's like in absence again of like religious institutions, it becomes the media and it becomes the government. which is why pop stars have taken on this very bizarre political significance in the last actually even in the last two or three years.

>> It's it's it gets more extreme kind of all the time because it's like the closest thing to like I mean they're called idols, >> you know, and so >> and those are not the people that are best equipped to handle the issues that are being placed in front of them. >> No, like the I think their whole point is to like be the the whimsy kids >> gesteraxing. >> Yeah. Maybe not gester maxing because I think I do think just but like like to be the opiate of the masses like be just like my escape. >> Yeah. Relief. Yeah, >> it was interesting when I went to the Daisy Chain Fields thing with Olivia. I felt like she managed to like really find the balance between being a pop star and doing something pragmatic and good for the world in that she picked like a very specific issue that she wanted to focus on. And she has said multiple times like I'm not an activist.

I'm not very like very well informed on every issue in the world, but I can pick one thing and become kind of a specialist about it and make that my issue. And I think that like knowing your limitations as a pop star almost like what you're able to provide that seems to me like that's a good meeting of symbolic and pragmatic like there's a middle ground to be found. >> That's good pop star diplomacy honestly. >> That is great pop star diplomacy and it also brought a bunch of other pop stars into the fold too. So I think it's kind of modeling a new way to be a pop star that's not I don't think pop stars have ever been insignificant but I think this is a hopeful sign that they can be useful for something that we have and understand the limitations of. I think a good outcome of cancel culture is like every people are feeling more responsible and having to be you know the bad outcome is more that it just it it can become sort of stocastic and random and like any things we do >> it's also silencing and that's never a good thing for any creative industry.

>> Yeah. I also I also think it is like for some people it can be like extremely emotionally damaging. I don't think >> life ruinous. Yeah. Life ruining >> like I don't think people understand the degree to which it can like especially any underlying mental health stuff. I've I've seen some people just like it's been really not good and like >> it can have lethal consequences. >> Yes, it can have lethal consequences. So, >> um >> yeah, but uh I still again but it's it's also um an outcome of like our institutions failing. You know, the legal institution doesn't work right.

>> Um and we don't have like moral instruction anymore for kids. Like for better or worse, like whatever I went to Catholic school, at least I had had to spend a whole bunch of time learning about forgiving. And you had a sense of what was right and wrong instilled into you that was like greater than how you feel in any given moment. >> Yeah. And there were some things where I didn't agree with them on what was right or wrong, but like overall there was an influence >> there. There was the concept of like religious or uh moral education existed and was pretty profound and like going through it with my kids myself, I'm like there is like there actually inbound morality from them, but like there they also just my god it takes like three years to learn how to say please.

>> Yeah. >> Like >> that's too long. >> It's [laughter] crazy. This is one of the biggest flaws with the humans. We should probably just let them be savage until they're like five, but >> and then start to corral them >> and then start to cor them, but I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe it's good that we, you know, if they're if you let them be savage till they're five, like you basically can't exist in society. So, >> no, then they're feral, unfortunately. But they're pure. >> But they're [laughter] like kill each other. >> Yeah. No, I'm Lord of the Flies. I mean, >> because Lord of the Flies is so fast over like a piece of bread. Like they they constantly think they're in um >> scarcity mindset scarcity. Like little kids.

>> Well, also another thing that takes them a long time to learn sharing. >> Yes. They cannot. Yes. >> Sharing anything at all. >> Sharing is so hard. And and and it's really a reflection of human nature. I'm like, "Oh, boy." >> And you know what I'm going to say? Sharing is hard. I'm an only child. I'm going to say sharing. >> Yeah. No, I guess it's kind of hard. I kind of like sharing. >> Well, that's why I do why I'm the critic and you're the artist. [laughter] >> I would love to maybe just kind of like get your temp check on how culture has been moving because I know you mentioned before the interview that you've been very offline lately. Um, so I think something that we have shared an interest in is the the uh what's the word? Encroachment of K-pop into like mainstream western music. And this leads me to a song on your album that is as yet unreleased, but it is an incredible song called Propaganda. And I think it's one of the funniest things on the record. It starts with you want something to live for, I'll give you something to die for. Um, what were you kind of like going for there? Like pop as a religion. And like what was what was your theme when you were thinking about >> honestly this and this is crazy. My

brother and his friend were working on this Luigi musical >> and [laughter] >> of course why not? >> Yeah. Um and I was like I I I love the moment where Abba did the Phantom of the Opera like um song and I you know I just love like when there's just like a great I like a pop song but like hyper specific. Um, but al also the girl I was writing it with, Madison Love, I think, didn't like the idea of Luigi musical. So, it can function on numerous It's also Luigi musical, but it's also sort of like, yes, like a deep dive into the culture. Um, >> like what pop music is, how people interpret it.

>> Yeah. And how and how we sort of, you know, I like to say like pop music is the opiate of the masses. >> So true. >> It's Yeah. Like and well, maybe actual opiates are these days, but um >> why not both? Why not both? There's this line that I really like. If you can't feel, then just believe and K-pop diplomacy. And I didn't even know this was a category of music that existed until I started researching this episode. >> Pop diplomacy. >> I did not know that. Yes. >> Do they travel or do they just stay in North Korea and like preach to the crowd? >> I think No, I think they go to South Korea and do and I think South Korean bands sometimes have to perform for North Korea, which I think is >> that's kind of beautiful.

>> No, it's beautiful. No, it's it's really really interesting to me. I love this idea. >> Music is a really interesting tool for diplomacy and like global citizenship, too. Cuz I was thinking about this like when I was like a teenager in Singapore and >> You grew up in Singapore? >> Yes, I grew up in Singapore. Did you know that? >> Yeah. So, I grew up in Singapore and when Lady Gaga took the Born This Way ball to Asia and like it was I think that was even pre-gay marriage being legalized here bringing Born This Way to Jakarta, Indonesia, like that that is diplomacy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. No, it's it's I think it's really interesting. Um and I I don't know. I think artists should step into this >> more actually. Some some people do. Some people do actually quite a bit. But yeah, I I I love the idea when it um Do you know about like ping- pong diplomacy?

>> No. What's that? >> Um it's this thing like when the uh it's US and China relations where we would like have these ping pong games. >> Oh yes, I do know about this. >> You know, I Yeah. And I I think you know, especially right now, our relationship with China is incredibly important. You know, a lot of the reason we don't have better AI regulation here is because we're worried about race dynamics with China. And I I'm like, we should be, you know, I think one of the reasons Espa is a more popular band in China is because they have a Chinese member. >> Interesting.

>> I'm I'm like we should be doing more like we could it's like soft power relations. >> Is an interesting kind of experiment in that regard, especially because they have the Korean member coming to the US and like that soft diplomacy between South Korea and basically like the liberal western world has been so effectively done for the last I want to say 10 years. K-pop has been like in the mainstream consciousness, but having Cats Eye as an English language example of it, I would really like to believe that it was a positive force, but unfortunately the execution of it to me, it just seems like it is there really that big of a difference between the the NK pop situation and what Katsai are doing. It's like still propaganda, but the motives are just kind of a little bit different. I guess I do think Katsai like to speak in favor of the execution of Katsai. One of the things I think is really important that I think K-pop has really done well um uh and prior to that FKA twigs is like forefront the dancer

>> dancers are are are extremely underpaid in the music industry and I think it's a really crucial art form. It is >> and it's an art form that's very hard to replace >> and very unstable line of work. It's a finite timeline. It's like freelance projects. Yeah, it's hard. >> It's a high-risisk like anyone who's doing that and I I love, you know, I feel like Daniela or whatever. >> Oh my god, she is amazing. >> One of the best. Like I am just stunned by her movement. >> This is I find it so frustrating because like I really want to root for Cats. I watched the show from its inception. Like I've been following their trajectory and I just feel like the more it goes on, the longer the experiment lasts, the more compressed each of them is becoming. And the only thing that is getting to shine really is the dancing I think. And I think the other girls have other talents that are like worth bringing to the forefront, but the the very rigid structure of like a K-pop group doesn't accommodate that for that.

>> I wish they were able to put out Did you see that demo they did with Alice Long Gao that was like um first in my bloodline? >> No, I didn't see that. Is it good? >> It's really good. I um uh I don't remember. >> I would love it if you would you be interested in writing something for Cats? I feel like you could really actually give them something good to work with. >> I would love to write for K-pop. I just feel like there's a lot of um every time I've tried to do writing projects with people, there's a lot of like I'm not sure I'm well suited to that type of workflow.

>> It's political. I mean, it it requires a lot of uh compromise. I I I was thinking that too when I was going through your production discoraphy, obviously the bulk of it is you and your own work and I was like that Grimes is so you kind of remind me in a sense in a certain way of Charlie in the sense that I think that you can really inhabit another artist's vantage and give them something. >> I want I want to do it so bad. I love and especially writing. I actually like it more with writing like literally write like writing lyrics. Um like ever since I've gotten into writing more like I I want to write for other people so bad. Like you know New Mona Lisa was started as a Lisa pitch.

>> I love New Mona Lisa but also Machine Girl. That is an incredible example of you doing some amazing co-writing. I >> didn't write lyrics on that which is crazy. >> Was it just the production that you did? >> Yeah. >> But you know what? Do you see what I mean that it kind of is a grime song a little bit? >> A a little bit. I mean, I feel like Minaella just we have a bunch of She wrote this on this other song on um that's on the second disc of this record that comes later called Sex Bionage. >> Oh, I want to hear that. >> Yeah. Where we had a line called KG Baby. >> So, >> Oh, wow. Okay. So, you were really Well, this is kind of a theme. You're ahead of your time.

>> Like, cuz I hit her up like right away when she got kicked out of Cats Eye. I was like I was like so sad. >> You have very good instincts. I feel like you can identify a budding talent. If you were put in a room with like the writers for Cats Essai or like if you actually got to lead a writing session and it was just up to you, what kind of ideas would you like want to play around with? >> I like stuff like New Mona Lisa where it can just be it can just be a pop song, but it can also be about, you know, like uh like that song's about um like living as art, >> which in many ways that's what like a K-pop group does.

>> This is a new song from her upcoming album, by the way, which isn't out yet by the time this is coming out. I love that song. That actually felt like one of the more straight straightforward pop songs on the record. kind of not you can kind of you can kind of go deep on that one. >> Interesting. >> Um yeah, but I >> Yeah, I would I would try to do like slightly conceptual stuff like that and and I love like and just word play and things like um I I love um Iconic by Mistake >> like I I oh I love boom pala I think um they're doing a really whoever's writing lyrics for what's laser is so good because you don't really notice that they're deep and then like I think that boom is like a religious >> pinky up has a moment that really struck me. It was I kind of know nothing just like Socrates. I was like wait there's something there. I was like finally there's there's a sign of life like there's actually something intelligent going on here or something aware of itself. That's >> I heard it was 48 laws of power in um >> Woke Up by XG.

>> Oh not aware. >> Do you know XG? >> Is this K-pop? >> Yeah. Uh >> the my my famili I have to tell you my familiarity with K-pop begins with Cat's Eye or begins with Blackpink and kind of ends with Cat's Eye. >> Wow. Okay. Oh, well, XG is, I think, one of the greatest art projects of all time. I did all my music videos with their video director, Choby Sock, who I think is really pioneering pioneering this Y3K movement thing. >> They are visually one of the best. They You know what? They they sort of fulfill the promise that you sort of want from Cats. I think >> they're all really different. They have like their own personal >> and they're allowed to inhabit those things in inhabit. Um I think one of them is trans.

>> Oh, period. Wait, that's actually okay. Woke K-pop. I love that. Yeah, they're like super cool and um I I really I started getting into them because I started seeing them being broken down on rap pages like I had this period of time where I like >> was breaking containment. >> Yeah. Like and they just the lyrics were really good. Like they just kept having these like lyrics that were like way above average for you know what like machine music or whatever. >> Yeah. >> Um and I uh I was like how is this possible? And I just Yeah. I just kind of like but then I but then I started realizing the like magnificence of what they were doing visually as well and just in terms of just straight up like how the girls kind of yeah everyone like inhabits a very distinct identity you know.

>> What is it that you take from K-pop into your creative process? Like did it inspire you at all when you're doing Sai opera? What parts of it do you think you like to channel if any at all? I just um have this uh Phil Spectre like if I was a less nice person I would like just love like five women to control completely. >> Yeah. And just be your little dolls and pose them around. It's it's an incredible idea. >> Spend all day like um working on being performers, you know? It's like on one hand I like have issues with optimism and I think that there should be like a church of state with alternative and mainstream. On the other hand, I think it's like good that you have like the performer class and like the sensitive writer class who don't like being famous.

>> I actually think it's pretty it's a new innovation that that those two things have mingled. >> It's an innov um like the like smartest coolest people I know as like writers or producers like work on K-pop and I think it's cool that there's places like like I feel Alisang Gao would not be known if she hadn't done >> for sure like >> huge breakthrough moment for her. that stuff. And I feel like that song, like channeling a song that bizarre through a project like that is, I think, really cool. >> It also gave Cats Eye like an edge and like an element that made them more interesting than just your average other like pop star product and group. So, I thought that was kind of cool of it. But I think when I think about how that those two things mingling together, like the creative brain plus is the performer brain, that's kind of why pop is getting boring now because it's it's people who are much better at one thing that are kind of half another thing or not fully understanding and inhabiting the creative side of it. Like there should be something like I love I loved when um Kendrick and Dre Drake had their beef because it's like I feel like you look at rap versus rock and I feel like rock

now rock is actually think better again. Everything's getting better again because you know like the hard times make Goodman. >> That's interesting. >> Um but like you know so the art I feel like art is really that's my favorite thing about going offline and coming back is I'm like oh wow art is a lot >> you're so back >> it's a lot better than it was a year and a half ago. Like I'm feel way less nihilistic just on that basis. But um um like it's important to protect like do like culturally protect certain things you know and there should be an alternative. And I think like for better or worse, rap has done in some ways a good job of just like like you are not being legit. You're not being authentic. You're not being I love Drake though. I'm like I love >> There is a Drake is a pop star.

>> But he's a pop star. Yeah. >> And there's there is a purpose to gatekeeping. Like of course it can be a little it can feel exclusionary blah blah blah blah blah but there is a purpose to like making the margins around something very clear and not porous. >> Yes. >> That's why pop is in like a bit of a weird space I feel because it's like very very porous. What feels exciting to you in pop right now? Is there like a particular artist or a song recently that you've been captated by? >> Phoebe Brides like um I love the new I actually didn't know that was out because one of the first things I came back on and saw your thing and then I got really into Phoebe Brides. Um I >> Do you consider her pop?

>> No. Okay. >> Alternative. >> I'm not saying Okay. I'm not saying what's going >> But she is considered. Yeah. But she is considered like a pop star still the way she sells and like the volume of of content that she makes. >> Radio head and nails and stuff used to be mainstream. We used to have a mainstream alternative. >> Yeah. We don't I guess Phoebe Bridger is our mainstream. >> She's coming. She's like rebuilding mainstream alternative which I think is really important. >> Yeah. >> Um so okay that's not a pop star. What you asked who? >> Yeah like pop stars. Well Adella is kind of an obvious answer for you. >> I really like Adella. I really cats eye. I like Larapim. I love >> So it's mostly K-pop that you're inspired by when it comes to pop music.

>> XG. Yeah. Uh I'm trying to think of um Yeah. I feel like everything is I'm trying to think if there's pop stars. I'm also to to be to be honest I'm like I've been offline for like a year and a half. not like super clued into it right now. I'm not so clued in. >> Well, actually, why don't we >> I love I love Charlie. >> But Charlie's the poorest thing, though. >> Yeah, Charlie is the poorest thing. >> She's like right there between >> mainstream pop star has only been a recent development for her. Who was on your like Mount Rushmore of pop stars? Like maybe doesn't have to be anybody that's relevant, but like when you're thinking of what good pop music is, who are your like four standouts? I actually I was trying to guess what you would say and I had no idea.

>> I was thinking maybe Mariah. Is Mariah on there? >> I Mariah Care's great. She's got the most like four syllable words of any artist and she's I feel like she's underrated for her um >> word play and stuff, but um uh I don't know. It's always just going to be I'm always going to go edgy. Like I >> tell me who it is. >> Oh, I don't know. My Rashmore pop. That sounds crazy. I feel like at least in this moment in my life, I'm not like so emotionally attached to pop music.

>> That doesn't surprise me. Like I um I think when I came out I had just learned pop music existed. >> So but anyone I say like I was going to say like >> Shenado Connor or like >> well Shenado Connor I I'm also Irish so mentioned I love Shenado Connor. >> I love Shenado Connor so bad like um but she's not Yeah, that's not popular. >> Well she for at at a period of time when you're talking about mainstream alternative she was a pop star for a period >> mainstream alternative. She's a more mainstream alter. >> You can pick your mainstream alternative Mount Rushmore if that's easier.

>> Yeah like probably Billy Corgan. Um, uh, 9ish Nails, formerly Marilyn Manson. Oh, the worst. >> No, that was a hard one. >> That was like my >> It's hard to see your icons fall. >> That was a rough one for me. Um, >> with Nicki Minaj. >> Oh, wait. Did you fall? >> Yes. [laughter] >> I won't even get into that. But you know what? I have to fill you in on that later. But yes, absolutely. >> Uh, you know, um, I I I think Outcast is really underrated.

>> Um, especially as like a producer Yeah. pop thing like the producer aur thing mostly there's a lot of producer a tours um but then for women I feel like Enya um >> oh that feels like I think you have a direct channel to her it seems >> yeah like obviously Bork and Kate Bush although I've always kind of never gone so deep in them because the like the comparisons or something so I've like I try to avoid anything that feels in my realm I honestly Rosalia >> is so you're kind of dressed like her today you're doing a little lux moment for Roselia today >> I would say this is a this is Edwardian as opposed to >> Mhm.

>> theological. But but I actually do there are a lot of theological themes on my record. >> There are a lot of theological themes on your record. >> I've like specifically not gone so deep in her record cuz when I saw that was happening I was like okay we have to make sure not to be too influenced. So I still haven't >> I definitely don't worry it did not really break containment for your album but >> I think it's a very different thing because now that I've come back I've been I think I think it's very different approach. Hers is kind of more like religion as metaphor or like rel religion as conduit for like human emotion. I suppose yours is a bit more conceptual or a little bit more theoretical. You're you're asking questions about like what is God? Like what is the purpose of God? How has that changed as certain technological innovations have rocked our world? I feel like there is a difference there.

So I think you're safe to listen to I think it's pretty different. >> If you want to listen to it, you can. But I >> I did like a brief but I haven't done a deep >> I think that's so interesting that you avoid things that you maybe are compared to because I feel like that kind of gets at something when I'm going to review like an album and I have to wait a couple of days or whatever. I will like fidiously avoid any mention or discussion or conversation about the thing that I'm going to analyze or dissect because I'm like I need to be pure. >> You want to be pure but you also want to be in in conversation with things which I think is also really important. You have to know the shape of it, but getting into the weeds. And it's also like humans are, you know, sponges. Like we absorb things.

>> That's my thing is I'll accidentally >> start doing cosplay. >> Yeah. Or or Yeah. I'll accidentally cosplay or like I'll accidentally like um Yeah. Like I'll get take I'll get out like a weird muscle memory of like a type of verb like words. Yeah. Yeah. I just need to be careful like with current people around my thing. >> I think I think that's a very good place to be to protect yourself artistically. For sure. Um, what are some like pop visuals that you feel especially inspired by? Cuz you mentioned the Madonna's American Life music video. >> Um, >> I was like, that is such a random poll.

>> Oh my god, >> it's amazing. >> I just I didn't realize she made anything like that that I like I love how deeply political it is. Didn't it not come out officially? >> It didn't. It was released years later. It was like deemed too controversial. >> See, that's I feel like a lot of this album is quite a bit like that. And I I my publicist sent me that at the end and I was like, "Thank you for not sending this to me before." And I I have because I have some stuff like that and everyone's trying to have it not come out. >> Grimes, this was a sensational conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I love this honestly. >> It was incredible. My favorite one so far. And Sai Opera will be out soon. We don't have >> 22nd or >> do you want to say the date?

>> I mean it's only going to shift by like a week or something. >> At the top of 2027, you will have a brand new Grimes album and I cannot recommend >> dropping singles like every 3 weeks or so. So you get a lot of music. >> There will be things out. You should pursue the entire project. It is fantastic. Thank you, Grimes. >> Thank you so much. >> Welcome to the bonus after show of Proto Pop. Grimes, please talk to us about your outfit today. >> Um, uh, it's an Eduwardian girls like workout uniform. >> Oh, >> it's like an early gym thing. It's like from kind of like between like flappers and and more sort of Eduardian style clothes.

>> How would you feel working out in that right now? >> Oh, well, probably less microplastics. >> Probably less microplastics. You probably get a little bit more sweaty. Yeah, but it I like it really reminds me I' I've been trying to like Well, first of all, I've been trying to not have any synthetic things on my body. Um, still kind of hard, but like uh I think everyone always thinks I'm going forward, but I'm going forward and back. >> And I I feel like especially like the flapper movement and stuff, like it got really cut short from World War I. And you know like right as women became free like we were going into this era with like art deco art nuvo like flappers like Paul poré like where and it was just so sick and we never kind of got to actualize on these aesthetic >> no cuz then it was depression time >> realms. Yeah cuz then we went right into World War I and the depression and um and then World War II and even just having a lot of fabric is tricky, you know, cuz it's like and I I just feel like we should pick up where we left off.

>> But I mean it's very it's very beautiful. It's so stylish, but I also just feel like it represents like, you know, I think we get really sad, like especially girls get really sad about all the ways we're had done by, but like this is like a hundred years ago. >> It's very It's kind of low cut for the time period. No. Would there be something underneath, too? >> Probably. >> Maybe. So, >> maybe so. I assume so. >> Does it feel good on your body? You did say you could feel like it was falling apart. >> It It is falling now. Basically, I'll have to go home after this because I won't be able to go anywhere else. But, um, it does feel pretty good. I don't know. And these are all I'm trying to not wear anything new ever again. Got these secondhands.

>> I love that mission, too. But I just find that vintage shopping requires a patience and an attention to detail that I don't have. You have it. >> I've become obsessed with it now because I'm also just sort of becoming obsessed with fashion because of this and like different cuts and different things. And >> um also there's like stuff like this like some of these weird cuts especially though. Oh man. Like Paul Por like do you know who that is? No. >> He's like the peak kind of like art deco art like flapper guy. him and this illustrator. They did all like early Vogue covers and stuff. >> Oh, period. >> You can't even find clothes with these cuts like >> like they're not even doing recreations.

>> Like no one has ever like it's just this whole world of fashion that just doesn't exist and it existed for such a short period of time like barely. There's some in the Met Museum. >> I was I was Yeah, I was going to ask you actually. Is there a lot of like flapper material around like original not reproduced things that you can buy if you wanted to? >> No, >> not like your Gregorian any get this get your Jim Gregorian wear anytime you like. >> It's so hard. That's why I'm like wearing stuff from like the literal like like from like 1910 because that's like >> the the closest you can get >> the closest the closest I can get like cuz like I'm trying to learn how to sew.

It hasn't been going so well. >> But yeah, anyway, I just wanted to I just I I actually am just very proud of this, but I think it's amazing. >> Yeah. I also um Yeah, I I think we need a revival of but also the place between Edwardian and Flapper. Sorry, I don't know if your eyes are No, I'm interested. uh is so sick where it's like it's not all the way like flapper where you know and and everyone's really into pirate hats. >> Yeah. I was wondering is the hat part of it? Is that also original or is the hat an addition that you make yourself? >> Oh, this thing the scarf scarf. >> Yeah. I don't know. I made me seem feel like a French >> is that part of it? Did they wear that too with their gym outfits or this is a grime edition?

>> I just got this. I'm also um uh uh coming to terms with being a French person. >> Oh, you are. You're Oh, are you French Canadian? >> I'm clbush. >> Oh, clche. >> Yes. Uh, and I think a lot of things also that people ascribe to me that as male intent are just being French. >> You know what the biggest headline from today's interview is? Grimes not problematic. Grime's actually just kind of French. >> Yes. Yeah. >> I think that's beautiful. >> Yeah. That's basically it.